Politics Rebooted

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Politics Rebooted

Post by Blakey » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:02 am

Since Jeem's rants and ramblings have seemed to take over the political discourse on the stupidly titled Politics thread that I won't name in this very sub forum.

I thought we'd start fresh and with perhaps less rants and more fact-based debates, I just feel the old thread has become too toxic for some folks and it is putting people off wanting to discuss anything.

I'm not sure how popular this will be and if folks still want to use the old thread that's fine with me, but I just thought it would be nice to clear the air so to speak.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by merman » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:39 pm

So Boris Johnson won't apologise for his Telegraph column criticising the burqha.

The Conservative Party is now investigating after hundreds of complaints.

He also broke the ministerial rules by signing a new contract with the Telegraph less than three months after resigning as Foreign Secretary.

Ignore the bumbling fool routine. That man is dangerous and no way should he be next Conservative leader.

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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:32 pm

So is this one of those safe spaces I've been hearing about? :lol:

This reeks of "I don't like the other side so let me create my own echo chamber". The whole point of politics is you argue it out and convince the other side that you convince the opposition that the way you want to do things is best.

This thread exemplifies what's going on and what's wrong with politics. Lets go to our own little corners and preach to the converted. Lets get each side as rabid as each other with no meeting in the middle.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by One-armed dwarf » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:00 pm

The most toxic part of that whole thread was when people were using it to entertain the idea of England actually winning the world cup. Whole thread should have been locked from that point on.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Blakey » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:34 pm

Sly Reflex wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:32 pm
So is this one of those safe spaces I've been hearing about? :lol:

This reeks of "I don't like the other side so let me create my own echo chamber". The whole point of politics is you argue it out and convince the other side that you convince the opposition that the way you want to do things is best.

This thread exemplifies what's going on and what's wrong with politics. Lets go to our own little corners and preach to the converted. Lets get each side as rabid as each other with no meeting in the middle.
Not at all.

In the OP I explained why I made this thread, and ultimately if people don't want to use it and still like the other thread that's absolutely fine. I just feel that there are some folks that are put off from commenting in the other thread (myself included) because it is full on inane incoherent ramblings that don't make a lot of sense.

I get this whole 'other side' stuff and I do agree to an extent but in some ways I feel you're just wasting your time. If the 'other side' of the argument are too ignorant or baffled by the facts you're presenting them then you're just wasting your breath. It's like trying to debate the guy in Weatherspoons I overheard saying 'I admire Trump' it's like, what can you even say to that? There's no point, you can put x amount of facts forward and he would've just come back with something like 'I just like the guy' or maybe he would've just started getting red in the face and stropped off or something like that. Utterly pointless.

You haven't been on here for donkeys years, you haven't had to read some of the stuff he's come out with over the years. It's not that his views are right wing that's the issue, it's that the style and writing is not coherent or conducive to debate, it's just rants and ramblings.

I think a lot of folks get nauseated with Jeem's ramblings is all and I feel this thread is a chance to clear the air and alleviate that Daily Mail-esque atmosphere of the old thread for something more fact-based and less tabloidy.

Once again, if people still want to use the old thread, that's perfectly fine. This is just a fresh start to clear the air, never a safe space :)
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:32 pm

Blakey wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:34 pm
Not at all.
You are partially right there. If Jeem comes over here you're going to have to face the music. You can't just run away every time you hear something you don't like.
In the OP I explained why I made this thread, and ultimately if people don't want to use it and still like the other thread that's absolutely fine. I just feel that there are some folks that are put off from commenting in the other thread (myself included) because it is full on inane incoherent ramblings that don't make a lot of sense.
That's the very defination of an echo chamber. I don't like what's happening over there so I'll shout from my soapbox over here.
I get this whole 'other side' stuff and I do agree to an extent but in some ways I feel you're just wasting your time. The 'other side' of the argument are too ignorant or baffled by the facts you're presenting them then you're just wasting your breath.
You have to ask questions and understand why they're coming to those conclusions. It's the whole walk a mile in their shoes thing. You don't need to agree with someone to understand where they're coming from. Viewing an argument from one side isn't getting the whole picture, you need to walk around the issue and see it from many angles. That goes for all parties.
It's like trying to debate the guy in Weatherspoons I overheard saying 'I admire Trump' it's like, what can you even say to that? There's no point, you can put x amount of facts forward and he would've just come back with something like 'I just like the guy' or maybe he would've just started getting red in the face and stropped off or something like that. Utterly pointless.
See this is where you are going wrong. This is confrontational. Instead you should ask why this person like Trump. You only make an extremist more extreme by labelling them as extremists. They get extreme because they're not being listened to in many cases. Be civil. Find common ground and then try to bring people around.

I don't know if you've ever seen this, but you should.

You've got to befriend and encourage that the cause they're following is one that can only lead to harm overall. You've to debate and unpick their believes. Just shouting at each other goes nowhere, you can't just wade in and go "Here's all your 'facts' now **** off with the political beliefs you follow and start following mine" because what makes sense to you and how you've lived your life isn't how they have lived their life. If they're not open to that you're just hammering a big divide in between standings that will only get wider with time. This goes both ways. Been heavy handed divides people, no matter which side of the spectrum you argue for.
You haven't been on here for donkeys years, you haven't had to read some of the rubbish he's come out with over the years.
I've actually read the thread from start to finish. This includes your pissy exit because you couldn't take the heat. You'd make a terrible MP, you'd fold at the first sign of an argument. :lol: If people disagree with you en masse you take your ball and run home. Not even en masse in this case, you faced opposition and just bailed and now you want a place to soapbox just like Jeem does. Get back in that thread and start asking questions and debunking. Every. Single. Post. Analyse and pick apart everything, even if you agree with it. Be objective. Convince people that there is a better way. :)
It's not that his views are right wing that's the issue, it's that the style and writing is not viable, it's just rants and ramblings.
Having political views that swing to the right are not inherently bad unless they go super far to that extreme. Jeem is nowhere near that. I don't agree with 99% of the things he comes up with, but it's an interesting insight to how he thinks and works out what he's getting. Same with Merman, who I am more or less politically aligned with, it's nice to see him highlight topics and give us his his spin on them.

This is the whole us and them thing again. Instead of coming together and working out the right solution people throw their toys out the pram when they hear something they don't like. It's my way or the highway for both sides when the real answer is probably somewhere in the middle. This is what should be happening in the thread. People should be questioning Jeem. People should be questioning Merman. Except if/when you do it devolves into vitriolic attacks because people are incapable of conversing.

Also that discrediting you did there. Very uncool. A standard attack on character. Come on, man. You're better than that.
I just think a lot of folks get nauseated with Jeem's ramblings is all and I feel this thread is a chance to clear the air and alleviate that Daily Mail-esque atmosphere of the old thread for something more fact-based and less tabloidy ranting.
The air will never be cleared, mainly because someone will post something, others will get pissed off and then you're back to square one. There's no backsies in politics. You can't just redux the atmosphere, you have to actively work to change it. All you are doing here is potentially changing the thread title. The snide marks towards Jeem are uncalled for. I know things get heated and people say stupid shit when they're confronted with something they disagree with but the personal attacks are uncalled for.

I sort of expect nothing to change. Maybe both threads will grow at posts per day as people shout down the echo chamber. Nothing important will be said, you'll both just pat yourself on the back for a job well done when the real job is over yonder, ignored because people don't like having their feelings hurt and can't handle sensible conversation.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Blakey » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 pm

I respect your opinion, but ultimately don't agree on many of your points.

I think the whole libertarian stuff is a bit naive in my view, reminds me of Boogie2988 or Colin Moriarty.

Also Jeem can't read any of my posts because he blocked/put me on ignore because I called him a cunt in jest and he got in a strop so replying to any of his posts is utterly pointless and a waste of time and effort :) When I did reply to him frequently it was a massive waste of time anyway, none of the information I put to him goes in or he doesn't believe it so it was ultimately a waste of energy.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:48 pm

Blakey wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 pm
I respect your opinion, but ultimately don't agree on many of your points.
Go on. Convince me.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by DifferentClass » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:16 am

Sly Reflex wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:48 pm
Blakey wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 pm
I respect your opinion, but ultimately don't agree on many of your points.
Go on. Convince me.
Sorry Sly, but one side uses manipulation, bad-faith and ignorance to get ahead. You can't debate that. Especially since 2016, even the centre has turned to shit.

Trying to meet in the middle has got us where we are today. It's time to be fucking real, call out and show people how stupid they are being (and without hurting their feels it seems).

None of this Shapiro style "debate me". I'm at the point where I think if you're not on this side you're trying to maintain a pathetic sense of power that devalues the lower classes. It's been argued for years and they still don't listen. The evidence is there. We do enough for these cunts why should we have to convince them, too?

And I'm starting to think the whole "echo-chamber" concept is bullshit. I've never read a POV from a right-winger that got me considering something. All they come up with is the same thing a shitty, reactionary part of myself already considered but got overwritten with an honest thought process... Or by getting the POV of an academic or economist that put things in a real perspective.

The type of news Jeem reposted is disingenuous tabloid nonsense that isn't worth debating. No-one here has the time.

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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am

Politics has always been dirty. It might have been bad faith and ignorance, but it convinced the majority of people that got up to go vote. When you go look at the manifestos of any political party, almost all of it is bullshit. There's a lot of lies. Left, right, doesn't matter.

Trying to meet in the middle hasn't got us where we are today, if anything it's more than voter apathy. Turn outs are bad because of the above statement, mainly it's the old people and lunatics that make sure they go out to vote and as a result we end up steering the boat in that direction.

If you can't debate then your argument is shit. An argument should carry enough weight that it convinces people. If you're going to come out and basically say "Hey, your idea is shit and you're a fucking idiot because this reason" then the opposition are not going to listen because why would they? If I openly give you a salvo of abuse before getting a point across, you're going to focus on the salvo and to hell with the bit that actually means something.

The echo chamber does exist. An example is how the right think all migrants are job stealing benefit hoarding criminals. The left things they're valued members of society that can do no wrong and we'd be fucked without them. The truth is somewhere smack in the middle. There's bad ones. There's good ones. There's indifferent ones. Truth is they're just people and they're going to follow the patterns that people follow. Listening to your own preferences just reinforces your own opinion no matter how wrong or right it is.

The problem with numbers and statistics is the academics and economists is they're going to interpret whats going on to an agenda. That's where people start pulling fast ones. It's the whole vaccines cause autism thing, you can ask 100 doctors if they do and publish the only story that suggests that vaccines do cause autism. Similarly you can pick apart statistics and spin those numbers how you want. Perspective depends what angle you're viewing at. To get a good idea you've to view an issue from every possible angle, and if possible have it taken from a the largest sample size as big as you possibly can to get the most accurate representation.

The news that Jeem posted was mostly nonsense, created to convince readers that that whatever they were talking about was the gospel. But for all the crap written in those pages there are fragments of numbers and statistics that can be gleaned that the stories are hung on. If those numbers and statistics are repeated over large parts of the media you can cross reference them, strip out all of the flowery language that punctuates them and make sense of it yourself. This goes for every bit of media. You don't take anything at face value just because it falls in line with your agenda.

Everything is worth debating, even if it's to dismantle an argument piece by piece, by dismantling and breaking down and finding what is factual and what is opinion. You cannot complain if you do not question the things going on around you. If you allow it, shit slips through, and ultimately it's that shit that is really damaging.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Blakey » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:45 am

DifferentClass wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:16 am
Sly Reflex wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:48 pm
Blakey wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 pm
I respect your opinion, but ultimately don't agree on many of your points.
Go on. Convince me.
Sorry Sly, but one side uses manipulation, bad-faith and ignorance to get ahead. You can't debate that. Especially since 2016, even the centre has turned to shit.

Trying to meet in the middle has got us where we are today. It's time to be fucking real, call out and show people how stupid they are being (and without hurting their feels it seems).

None of this Shapiro style "debate me". I'm at the point where I think if you're not on this side you're trying to maintain a pathetic sense of power that devalues the lower classes. It's been argued for years and they still don't listen. The evidence is there. We do enough for these cunts why should we have to convince them, too?

And I'm starting to think the whole "echo-chamber" concept is bullshit. I've never read a POV from a right-winger that got me considering something. All they come up with is the same thing a shitty, reactionary part of myself already considered but got overwritten with an honest thought process... Or by getting the POV of an academic or economist that put things in a real perspective.

The type of news Jeem reposted is disingenuous tabloid nonsense that isn't worth debating. No-one here has the time.
Agree with this 100%.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by regemond » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:13 am

Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
Everything is worth debating, even if it's to dismantle an argument piece by piece, by dismantling and breaking down and finding what is factual and what is opinion. You cannot complain if you do not question the things going on around you. If you allow it, shit slips through, and ultimately it's that shit that is really damaging.
All well and good until one person blocks the other and debate becomes literally impossible. It's not blakey you need to convince in this situation, it's jeem. Blakey did try arguing if I remember right, and every time he did jeem just derided it and laughed it out the door. Not because blakey was wrong, but because he didn't agree, and it was an opinion from the loony left.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:14 pm

I know that. I said that Jeem shouldn't have blocked anyone in the first place. If you cannot defend your argument then you have to cede your argument.
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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by DifferentClass » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:33 pm

Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
Politics has always been dirty. It might have been bad faith and ignorance, but it convinced the majority of people that got up to go vote. When you go look at the manifestos of any political party, almost all of it is bullshit. There's a lot of lies. Left, right, doesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be dirty, though. There are capable but naive fucks that do want best for the society that gets undermined, but giving the opportunity; Heck, they may do something. One was killed by a right-wing psycho. We have the power to support people like this. It's not as simple as making excuses to sit in the middle.
Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
Trying to meet in the middle hasn't got us where we are today, if anything it's more than voter apathy. Turn outs are bad because of the above statement, mainly it's the old people and lunatics that make sure they go out to vote and as a result we end up steering the boat in that direction.

If you can't debate then your argument is shit. An argument should carry enough weight that it convinces people. If you're going to come out and basically say "Hey, your idea is shit and you're a fucking idiot because this reason" then the opposition are not going to listen because why would they? If I openly give you a salvo of abuse before getting a point across, you're going to focus on the salvo and to hell with the bit that actually means something.
I'm not talking about needless abuse I'm on about calling a spade a spade. There is too much stupid rhetoric in the mainstream and it needs to be shamed. I don't see another way. Pussy-footing around has got us to where we are today and, personally, my patience is thin.
Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
The echo chamber does exist. An example is how the right think all migrants are job stealing benefit hoarding criminals. The left things they're valued members of society that can do no wrong and we'd be fucked without them. The truth is somewhere smack in the middle. There's bad ones. There's good ones. There's indifferent ones. Truth is they're just people and they're going to follow the patterns that people follow. Listening to your own preferences just reinforces your own opinion no matter how wrong or right it is.
Bollocks. Who is this left that thinks that? What I know is the statistics. The statistics say they are a net positive. Not that they can do no wrong or bullshit like that. Like we know; it doesn't matter what race or creed you are there are cunts. But statisically immigration is a positive thing to an economy. Even cunts of the same race can't get along half the time so that side of things is moot.
Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
The problem with numbers and statistics is the academics and economists is they're going to interpret whats going on to an agenda. That's where people start pulling fast ones. It's the whole vaccines cause autism thing, you can ask 100 doctors if they do and publish the only story that suggests that vaccines do cause autism. Similarly you can pick apart statistics and spin those numbers how you want. Perspective depends what angle you're viewing at. To get a good idea you've to view an issue from every possible angle, and if possible have it taken from a the largest sample size as big as you possibly can to get the most accurate representation.
Individual economists and academics may do that, but it's about finding a consensus. Or even looking at the data yourself if you're that untrustworthy. The vaccines cause autism thing was one study by a dude in his shed. Every other study said it was bullshit. Not trusting academic studies is anti-intellectual and another reason for Brexit.

That interview with Micheal Gove where he said "the British public are fed up of listening to experts" was a spine-chilling thing to me. What's the point in trying to understand complicated things if the public won't trust you? The right like to say that the left appeal to emotion but the complete opposite is true. Well, you can appeal to emotion on the left, but it's all the right have. Well; that and greed.
Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
The news that Jeem posted was mostly nonsense, created to convince readers that that whatever they were talking about was the gospel. But for all the crap written in those pages there are fragments of numbers and statistics that can be gleaned that the stories are hung on. If those numbers and statistics are repeated over large parts of the media you can cross reference them, strip out all of the flowery language that punctuates them and make sense of it yourself. This goes for every bit of media. You don't take anything at face value just because it falls in line with your agenda.
Nah, you can do all that looking at the source. You never need to look at right-wing media for stats.
Sly Reflex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 am
Everything is worth debating, even if it's to dismantle an argument piece by piece, by dismantling and breaking down and finding what is factual and what is opinion. You cannot complain if you do not question the things going on around you. If you allow it, shit slips through, and ultimately it's that shit that is really damaging.
If you have the time and inclination it could be worth arguing. And good for you if you do that. But some of us are just in a state of dissonance and don't know where to start because of the state of things. They're really fucking bad.

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Re: Politics Rebooted

Post by Sly Reflex » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:11 pm

DifferentClass wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:33 pm
It doesn't have to be dirty, though. There are capable but naive fucks that do want best for the society that gets undermined, but giving the opportunity; Heck, they may do something. One was killed by a right-wing psycho. We have the power to support people like this. It's not as simple as making excuses to sit in the middle.
Where there is power there are people willing to go to extreme lengths to gain it, and they're going to play dirty to get whatever they want? Is it right? No. But it is what it is and despite having the power to support people that don't do that the numbers are not enough to put them in power. It's a catch 22. Politics is for Machiavellian people. Politics is also a dangerous profession. For some the loss of your job might be the harshest thing they want, for others, nothing but death is acceptable. It's shit, but that's the way it is. It's never going to change either, which is unfortunate.
I'm not talking about needless abuse I'm on about calling a spade a spade. There is too much stupid rhetoric in the mainstream and it needs to be shamed. I don't see another way. Pussy-footing around has got us to where we are today and, personally, my patience is thin.
Ah, calling a spade a spade. I've heard a lot of right wingers used that phrase, often followed by some scary rhetoric about how we should treat some topic. It follows the same no nonsense no pussy footing around you mention there too usually. Going to extremes is dangerous. It's how people end up getting hurt.
Bollocks. Who is this left that thinks that? What I know is the statistics. The statistics say they are a net positive. Not that they can do no wrong or bullshit like that. Like we know; it doesn't matter what race or creed you are there are cunts. But statisically immigration is a positive thing to an economy. Even cunts of the same race can't get along half the time so that side of things is moot.
Specifically I was talking about the echo chamber thing here you talked about. The echo chamber does exist, and it exists for every single person that's not willing to listen to people outside their own little bubble. When you're surrounded by yes men everything seems like a great idea, but if you listen to yes men often enough you end up getting fucked by bad decisions people never stopped to questions. This is why you should listen to all arguments, even if it happens to have info in there you do not like or want to hear. I agree with you though, statistically immigration is good for the economy. If an economy is thriving it brings in people, if it is receding you end up with people leaving as we've seen in places like Spain.
Individual economists and academics may do that, but it's about finding a consensus. Or even looking at the data yourself if you're that untrustworthy. The vaccines cause autism thing was one study by a dude in his shed. Every other study said it was bullshit. Not trusting academic studies is anti-intellectual and another reason for Brexit.

That interview with Micheal Gove where he said "the British public are fed up of listening to experts" was a spine-chilling thing to me. What's the point in trying to understand complicated things if the public won't trust you? The right like to say that the left appeal to emotion but the complete opposite is true. Well, you can appeal to emotion on the left, but it's all the right have. Well; that and greed.
And this is the point I'm trying to make. People are always going to bend numbers to prove their own point. They're going to try and throw false positives into the pot and hope that it swings people around to their thought process even if it's fraudulent, bending the truth or extrapolating very specific data in ways that carries their argument. You have to look at the many sources and make sure that everyone is above board. It's no good just accepting it, you have to double check it. It's like the now infamous bus that promised money to the NHS. It was clearly nonsense, but people bought into it because it's what they wanted to hear.
Nah, you can do all that looking at the source. You never need to look at right-wing media for stats.
Read what I said again. If there are stone cold facts that are widely reported, then there is some semblance of truth to the story, even if it's written with a right agenda. Strip the opinions and go for the facts. The right is spinning those facts and concentrating on the worst of the news in ways that the left would spin the good examples. It's OK to acknowledge that a cause we fight for sometimes has bad things attached to it and trying to wash our hands of that makes the left look bad because we sweep it under the rug. Similarly the right sweeps the good news under the rug as well, because it doesn't push the agenda they're wanting to deliver.

It's also important to remember that your side can make mistakes as well as your opponents can do things that are actually great. The Tories legalising gay marriage for example is a thing that I am thankful the Tories did just for civil rights. The rest? Not so much. You'd have to ask someone if they thought Labour did anything for them even though they never vote for them. It might be hard for them to admit it, but there's things the party they do not support did things that was beneficial to them.

This extends to the EU too. I know all the great things the EU did for me. It gave me and many people a job through economic strength and easy no fuss trading. My consumer protection went through the roof as the EU bloc wouldn't allow shitty practices and would stop them whenever it saw fit. It's built lots of projects here in the UK that would never have been greenlit without their backing.

For some those benefits are hard to see. For example people that are on the poverty line don't give a shit about being able to retire to the mainland. They don't see that the EU was responsible for stopping manufacturers from not using a uniform solution. They just see the stupid shit that the anti EU side pushes.

And this isn't to say that the EU is perfect. Far from it. But it's the best we can do at the moment and change isn't going to come for us now we're heading for the outside of it.
If you have the time and inclination it could be worth arguing. And good for you if you do that. But some of us are just in a state of dissonance and don't know where to start because of the state of things. They're really fucking bad.
The thing is a lot of people that were in a state of dissonance went and voted for Brexit because they felt so disconnected from it all. They saw a way to give the establishment a bloody nose and we all ended up worse off for it.

You break this dissonance by getting up, being active and questioning, debating and exposing shitty ideas and rhetoric that is going to cause long term damage to the country. Things suddenly aren't going to get any better by magic. It needs people to actively push for a better life and by using statistics coupled with common sense that will drive the country, its people and its governance into a better place.

It's no good sitting back and gesturing how bad things are. You need to act. We all need to act. If you let the opposition take the floor and don't bother showing up yourself then the rot will continue to set in. Being apathetic is the biggest menace here. As the old saying goes: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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