Bad rep for bad retailers

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shinymcshine
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by shinymcshine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:17 pm

:roll:

Oh boy, yes the new games are sparse on the details, which is why I suggested an older one with manual - now it's usually in the small print when the game loads which you're agreeing to by playing/loading.

As I originally alluded to, I would be surprised if the original story was just an individual case against one person selling one copy, but he probably fell into a much wider cull - but focussing on the little guy makes it newsworthy.

If ownership really bothers you then I'd suggest you stay away from buying (and reading the T&C's attached to) any form of mass media now and in the future, and please don't forget to boycott any and all Bethesda games too. I don't think you'll be playing video games for much longer either.

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Sly Reflex
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Sly Reflex » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:48 pm

So if it's on all manuals, how does this effect the second hand market? Is that suddenly illegal? Or are the contradicting laws where the law of the land usurps the law they state. I know in some cases they have legal threats but there's just no way in principle they'd stand up because the courts would throw it out.

I'm genuinely interested because I don't think there's much here Bethesda can do. You're not selling an account where you click accept on an EULA. You're selling a physical thing that has a legitimate license. There's no bootlegging. The game isn't used. I see no reason why Bethesda (or Zenimax?) would jump on this.
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shinymcshine
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by shinymcshine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:56 pm

Here's a snippet from the Zenimax website

3. Limited License to Use
Subject to the terms in these Terms of Service and Your compliance with all of the terms and conditions in these Terms of Service, ZeniMax grants to You, for Your personal and private use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable license to use Services (including any Content which is made available by ZeniMax (including but not limited to Game Mods that You download from a ZeniMax website) as a part of a Service and then solely in connection with such Service) as set forth in these Terms of Service.

You may not (a) distribute, publicly perform or display, sell, transmit, publish, edit, reproduce, sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer any Game, Software, and/or Content, including without limitation any access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works based upon any Services; (d) otherwise use any Services except as expressly provided in these Terms of Service; (e) copy or download any Software or Content unless the Content is a Game Mod available for download from a ZeniMax website or is Downloadable Content (other than Virtual Currency) or You are otherwise expressly authorized to do so in writing by ZeniMax; and/or (f) remove, obscure, or alter copyright, patent, trademark, or other proprietary rights notices affixed to any Services. Any commercial use is prohibited absent written permission by an authorized representative of ZeniMax.

You can read it all here:

https://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us

I acknowledge that the EU version might differ slightly but not wholly - noting the original issue was US based anyway.

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Blakey
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Blakey » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:18 pm

I’ll continue to buy games and other mass media and legally sell them when they’re no longer wanted as I’ve been doing all my life. Neither will I boycott Bethesda as I want to play DOOM Eternal and tons of their other titles. I just think it’s shitty when big corporations push around the little guy is all and I don’t really know why anyone would try to defend Bethesda’s actions really, they’re indefensible.

I never pirate games and have never engaged in any nefarious activities regarding them and will continue to legally sell them on when I’m finished with them or unwanted.

Looks like Bethesda are going to be busy all night on eBay anyway:

https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40 ... 4&_sacat=0

:roll:
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Sly Reflex
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Sly Reflex » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:22 pm

By that legalese you're not allowed to stream or do youtube videos. As someone who does youtube stuff (or rather the guy I do it with) Bethesda love you to do youtube stuff, because it's essentially free promotion, even if it's bad.

In fact when the whole copyright thing was a massive thorn in the side of streamers and youtubers I think Bethesda were one of the ones to come out in support of free use.

Also, if you've never used those services in the first place you're not specifically transferring. There's no accounts moving because the account has yet to be created by breaking the seal. Acquiring is not using. Using is opening the thing and using it for the purpose it was created for.
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shinymcshine
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by shinymcshine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:42 pm

Yep you've pointed out that they will usually turn a blind eye to private second hand sales and allowing limited streaming/guides/walkthroughs etc to YouTube etc, but they are enforceable under the T&C's you've agreed to when you've bought the game.

IIRC didn't Nintendo float the notion of removing all its media from YouTube in the none too distant past before recinding it due to PR pressure, yet they could have if they'd wanted to.

I will reiterate - the company's actions aren't "indefensible" , they are just applying what you've agreed to through your purchase and usage.

Sly - Re. your last para - if you've not used it then it will probably then fall under the 'distribution' clause.

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Blakey
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Blakey » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:51 pm

There’s nothing in the T&C’s that says you can’t sell a game. It’s utter bollocks.

How are the likes of GAME/CeX/GameStop allowed to buy/sell used games?
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shinymcshine
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by shinymcshine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:58 pm

Blakey wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:51 pm
There’s nothing in the T&C’s that says you can’t sell a game. It’s utter bollocks.
That'll be the non-transferable licence part, and I'll say (yet again) but most of the time they tolerate the private secondhand market.

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Blakey
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Blakey » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:09 pm

If you haven’t opened the game or put it in your PS4 you haven’t activated the digital/physical handshake and therefore not ‘activated’ the license (I.E. the game)

You’re saying that legally no one is able to sell their used games but publishers have just turned a blind eye to it since the dawn of time?

I’m sorry but that’s just laughable I’m afraid.
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shinymcshine
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by shinymcshine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:35 pm

I'm not sure why you're making this so difficult to understand - you're essentially buying (at the point of sale) a licence to use the game, and that's the part that's non transferable (unless you're an authorised distributor) noting they might choose to ignore the private secondhand transfer.

If you don't like it tough luck, it's not my case to argue it's their T&Cs which you agree to, so then your only option is not to buy.

or maybe run a legal case:

'Blakey vs The Entire Entertainment Industry' (Rights, Licences and Private Ownership)

Good luck with that.

I have nothing further to add on this matter.

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Blakey
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Blakey » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:02 pm

The only T&Cs I knowingly adhere to and see when buying a game is if there’s a EULA on the menu/start up screen with physical games, if there no T&Cs on the retailer website or back of box (if buying in person) then I’m not knowingly agreeing to anything at the point of sale apart from the standard trades, goods and services acts, fit for sale etc.

A retailer has never made me sign a EULA or T&Cs at the point of purchase for a physical game.

The bottom line is regardless of whether Bethesda are within their rights to act as they have in this case they still have never done something like this in their entire history and as I type there are tons of sealed new copies of TEW2 on eBay being sold by individuals just like the guy at the centre of this debacle.

Whether the legalese is correct or not is irrelevant, huge corporations shouldn’t bully, intimidate and fight paying customers into silence or not enable them to a sell a piece of their property they own and have paid for.

Sets a dangerous precedent and I think it’s truly dispicable.
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Blakey
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Re: Bad rep for bad retailers

Post by Blakey » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:53 pm

Thank God for him:

https://youtu.be/c6VOFDh3g70

Fu*k Bethesda.
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