For the love of Okami

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BertyBottyBiter
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Post by BertyBottyBiter » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:38 pm

-Jay- wrote:
BertyBottyBiter wrote:Art (I hate the word personally) is supposed to make you think, make a statement or mess with your head.
Really? See, now, I look at a painting I like and think 'that looks really nice' or 'that's really cool'. No thinking, head-messing or statement-shovelling there.

That's what I hate about the art world. When the greeks were sculpting a beautiful statue of some goddess or other, were they thinking about existentialism? Or 'mere' aesthetics? Why can't something just look nice?
Of course they weren't thinking about existentialism. The existentialist movement wasn't till the 20th century. But similarly they weren't just creating something pleasing to the eye.

Ancient Greek sculptors were interested in the perfect human form and the importance of proportion. It was a mental exercise as well as an aesthetic one. Plus remember that most statues, and even vase paintings, had strong ties to religion and worship and hence their beliefs in life, death and the meaning of existence.

Although they may just 'look nice' to us, to the ancient Greeks they would have stimulated thought and emotion (statues as grave markers etc).

I think my original point stands.
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BertyBottyBiter
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Post by BertyBottyBiter » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:40 pm

bellow wrote:
BertyBottyBiter wrote:Saying that something is 'crude' because it achieves something it set out to do seems a bit disingenuous.
As I said before I used the word crude only to mean derivative. Messianism (death of hero/transformation/ressurection) is pretty much a staple of sci-fi and fantasy. Think Matrix, Dune, Lord of the Rings, Narnia...etc
In which case everything after the Iliad and the Odyssey is also crude, including Okami.
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bellow
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Post by bellow » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:00 pm

BertyBottyBiter wrote:In which case everything after the Iliad and the Odyssey is also crude, including Okami.
No. Although overuse of a motif will grate after a while. I think you are intentinally missing the point. I loved SOTC and ICO but in my opinion the
emotional content was not altogether deftly handled. My point about Okami was that it (IMO) carried emotional depth without the use of overcooked pathos.
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BertyBottyBiter
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Post by BertyBottyBiter » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:11 pm

bellow wrote:
BertyBottyBiter wrote:In which case everything after the Iliad and the Odyssey is also crude, including Okami.
No. Although overuse of a motif will grate after a while. I think you are intentinally missing the point. I loved SOTC and ICO but in my opinion the
emotional content was not altogether deftly handled. My point about Okami was that it (IMO) carried emotional depth without the use of overcooked pathos.
I'm not missing the point. I disagree with it. :wink:
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FatTrucker
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:20 pm

BertyBottyBiter wrote:
-Jay- wrote:
BertyBottyBiter wrote:Art (I hate the word personally) is supposed to make you think, make a statement or mess with your head.
Really? See, now, I look at a painting I like and think 'that looks really nice' or 'that's really cool'. No thinking, head-messing or statement-shovelling there.

That's what I hate about the art world. When the greeks were sculpting a beautiful statue of some goddess or other, were they thinking about existentialism? Or 'mere' aesthetics? Why can't something just look nice?
Of course they weren't thinking about existentialism. The existentialist movement wasn't till the 20th century. But similarly they weren't just creating something pleasing to the eye.

Ancient Greek sculptors were interested in the perfect human form and the importance of proportion. It was a mental exercise as well as an aesthetic one. Plus remember that most statues, and even vase paintings, had strong ties to religion and worship and hence their beliefs in life, death and the meaning of existence.

Although they may just 'look nice' to us, to the ancient Greeks they would have stimulated thought and emotion (statues as grave markers etc).

I think my original point stands.
Although to be fair, thats probably the case with all art when referencing the person who actually created it. In most cases though the person who actually commissioned it would have been doing so as a cock waving exercise. Not exclusively I'll grant you but in lots of cases that kind of vanity would be the primary factor in commissioning a piece of art or sculpture. Purely because it was big, visible and looked good at parties. Not too different from today really.

Its easy to sit and debate the merits, intentions and mechanics behind 'art' all day long, but its value both aesthetically or at any deeper level is completely in the eye of the beholder. A hundred people can take a hundred completely different things away from a single piece of art so no-one is ever going to reach a 'correct' conclusion.

The idea that art is 'meant' to make you think, or mess with your head or do anything else is pretty far off the mark, in and of itself there isn't any correct way to view, approach or debate art, the whole point is that you enjoy it in a personal way, and if that's just smiling benignly at the artists skill and appreciating its aesthetics, then thats good enough. If it makes you weep because you can see about 8 layers down that the artist is making a profound statement about love or the meaning of life, thats ok too.

To go from discussing the merits of games like Okami and SotC, to a debate about the potential musings and intentions of sculptors that died thousands of years ago is a little absurd to be honest. Both games are beautiful in their own right and do what they do very well.

For our next debate I think we should start with Metal Gear Solid and finish with a lengthy disagreement about exactly what colour the sky is. :roll:
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BertyBottyBiter
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Post by BertyBottyBiter » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:24 pm

FatTrucker wrote:
BertyBottyBiter wrote:
-Jay- wrote: Really? See, now, I look at a painting I like and think 'that looks really nice' or 'that's really cool'. No thinking, head-messing or statement-shovelling there.

That's what I hate about the art world. When the greeks were sculpting a beautiful statue of some goddess or other, were they thinking about existentialism? Or 'mere' aesthetics? Why can't something just look nice?
Of course they weren't thinking about existentialism. The existentialist movement wasn't till the 20th century. But similarly they weren't just creating something pleasing to the eye.

Ancient Greek sculptors were interested in the perfect human form and the importance of proportion. It was a mental exercise as well as an aesthetic one. Plus remember that most statues, and even vase paintings, had strong ties to religion and worship and hence their beliefs in life, death and the meaning of existence.

Although they may just 'look nice' to us, to the ancient Greeks they would have stimulated thought and emotion (statues as grave markers etc).

I think my original point stands.
Although to be fair, thats probably the case with all art when referencing the person who actually created it. In most cases though the person who actually commissioned it would have been doing so as a cock waving exercise. Not exclusively I'll grant you but in lots of cases that kind of vanity would be the primary factor in commissioning a piece of art or sculpture. Purely because it was big, visible and looked good at parties. Not too different from today really.

Its easy to sit and debate the merits, intentions and mechanics behind 'art' all day long, but its value both aesthetically or at any deeper level is completely in the eye of the beholder. A hundred people can take a hundred completely different things away from a single piece of art so no-one is ever going to reach a 'correct' conclusion.

The idea that art is 'meant' to make you think, or mess with your head or do anything else is pretty far off the mark, in and of itself there isn't any correct way to view, approach or debate art, the whole point is that you enjoy it in a personal way, and if that's just smiling benignly at the artists skill and appreciating its aesthetics, then thats good enough. If it makes you weep because you can see about 8 layers down that the artist is making a profound statement about love or the meaning of life, thats ok too.

To go from discussing the merits of games like Okami and SotC, to a debate about the potential musings and intentions of sculptors that died thousands of years ago is a little absurd to be honest. Both games are beautiful in their own right and do what they do very well.

For our next debate I think we should start with Metla Gear Solid and finish with a lengthy disagreement about exactly what colour the sky is. :roll:
Sorry :oops:
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:33 pm

BertyBottyBiter wrote:Sorry :oops:
What on earth for?. It was actually a fairly fruity debate, as you'll come to see nobody really pays any attention to me anyway, I think they've got used to the fact that I talk lots of sh*t, a lot of the time. :D
I jump in and out of threads and argue for the fun of it.

Welcome to the boards by the way.

:wink:
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Post by Sasquatch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:54 pm

Next, of course, it'll be all about form according to, I don't know Plato or whoever it was. Never did get that stuff... not that I studied it; I was just incredibly bored at the time. :shock: :oops:

I know it may be 'crude' from overuse of that messianism thing but, I mean, c'mon... show me any other examples of games that manage to manipulate the player's emotions so deftly. I dare ya! I double dog dare ya!

FatTrucker, are you like the forum's mad old uncle who's a bit of a genius but no-one heeds because, erm, he has a scary maniacal smile or something?

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FatTrucker
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:06 pm

Sasquatch wrote:are you like the forum's mad old uncle
Thats Bobs Job. :D
Sasquatch wrote:who's a bit of a genius
Nowhere even close.
Sasquatch wrote:a scary maniacal smile


Sounds about right. :twisted:
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Post by game_over » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:58 pm

Just a thought: Do you think as many of us would extol the virtues of Okami, SotC or Ico if they'd sold through the roof and been accepted by all and sundry? Does these titles being overlooked by many imbue them with a certain 'romanticism' or perhaps mean we attach more significance or importance to them than they actually warrant?

Just a thought...
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Post by CaptainBus » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:49 pm

game_over wrote:Just a thought: Do you think as many of us would extol the virtues of Okami, SotC or Ico if they'd sold through the roof and been accepted by all and sundry? Does these titles being overlooked by many imbue them with a certain 'romanticism' or perhaps mean we attach more significance or importance to them than they actually warrant?

Just a thought...
Yes and no. Are Oblivion and BioShock not beautiful games, despite selling a packet?
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Post by game_over » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:38 am

CaptainBus wrote:
game_over wrote:Just a thought: Do you think as many of us would extol the virtues of Okami, SotC or Ico if they'd sold through the roof and been accepted by all and sundry? Does these titles being overlooked by many imbue them with a certain 'romanticism' or perhaps mean we attach more significance or importance to them than they actually warrant?

Just a thought...
Yes and no. Are Oblivion and BioShock not beautiful games, despite selling a packet?
Indeed they are. However, we seem to accept criticism of these 'mega-sellers' and are more willing to identify their shortcomings than we are with the ones that didn't sell so well. Then again perhaps we don't identify their shortcomings because of their 'artistic' connotations...?
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Post by BertyBottyBiter » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:32 pm

game_over wrote:
CaptainBus wrote:
game_over wrote:Just a thought: Do you think as many of us would extol the virtues of Okami, SotC or Ico if they'd sold through the roof and been accepted by all and sundry? Does these titles being overlooked by many imbue them with a certain 'romanticism' or perhaps mean we attach more significance or importance to them than they actually warrant?

Just a thought...
Yes and no. Are Oblivion and BioShock not beautiful games, despite selling a packet?
Indeed they are. However, we seem to accept criticism of these 'mega-sellers' and are more willing to identify their shortcomings than we are with the ones that didn't sell so well. Then again perhaps we don't identify their shortcomings because of their 'artistic' connotations...?
Jet Set Radio Future had no shortcomings! :)

The only reason we tend to focus so heavily on the positives of classic titles that don't sell well is so people don't forget about them. It's about making sure that people aren't put off by originality and actually buy into new ideas, and that tragedies like the sales figures of Psychonauts, Stranger's Wrath and Shenmue 2 don't happen again.

It's about making people see sense.
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Post by game_over » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:47 pm

BertyBottyBiter wrote:
game_over wrote:
CaptainBus wrote: Yes and no. Are Oblivion and BioShock not beautiful games, despite selling a packet?
Indeed they are. However, we seem to accept criticism of these 'mega-sellers' and are more willing to identify their shortcomings than we are with the ones that didn't sell so well. Then again perhaps we don't identify their shortcomings because of their 'artistic' connotations...?
Jet Set Radio Future had no shortcomings! :)

The only reason we tend to focus so heavily on the positives of classic titles that don't sell well is so people don't forget about them. It's about making sure that people aren't put off by originality and actually buy into new ideas, and that tragedies like the sales figures of Psychonauts, Stranger's Wrath and Shenmue 2 don't happen again.

It's about making people see sense.
Hear, hear. Making people see sense is a worthy cause indeed! I didn't own the original xbox and was disppointed that Stranger's Wrath was a platform exclusive...

As an aside has anyone played a substantial amount of Okami Wii? Having consigned my PS2 to the bedroom and, therefore, to the 14" TV that resides there it seems unlikely that I'll go back to Okami PS2. Whereas the Wii is in the living room with the 32" plasma... So, worth getting?
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Re: For the love of Okami

Post by sleepery jeem » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:54 am

Okami HD for PS4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKh02FVSTY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__YId5yl_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-84vTjztSg


Okami HD will release for PS4 in North America and Europe on December 12th.

In a rare turn of events, the Japanese release will come just a few days later, on December 21st.


Also those who pre-order on the PlayStation Store will also grab two PS4 themes, titled “Okami” and “Providence.”

You can also see both of them in the videos at the bottom of the post. At the moment there is no information about any similar bonuses to be granted to those who will pre-order on Steam or on the Xbox Store.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvsyLWsHerA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sonKK4Ybb6g
"Make the Left Hate again"

Paolo Gerbaodo : Kings College London.

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