Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by One-armed dwarf » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:42 pm

Racist against faces

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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by maf-me-quick » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:43 pm

I have to admit I’m not keen on faces. Like I like them in video games but real ones are disturbing
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:45 pm

Ask Blakey....though he only believes in the one kind, weird really its like believing in Santa but not the Easter Bunny.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by shinymcshine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:10 pm

Just read the Eurogamer review, who again saw it appropriate to mention " a disturbing lack of people of colour" in the game.

Then I thought to myself, well in Witcher 3 how many notable "people of colour" appear in that game ? I couldn't recall many (if any) ?

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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by One-armed dwarf » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:19 pm

Tbf there was a whole big thing about that a few years ago, you can find some articles if you google "Witcher III POC".

Similar to what's being said now about Kingdom Come but with the difference of more of a focus on Vavra (the creative director of KC)

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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by Blakey » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Oh boy, that Eurogamer review will definitely rustle some jimmies :lol: :lol: :lol:
When Kingdom Come does succeed, it's peerless. The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher can feel flimsy next to the sophisticated systems and heft of history on show here.

But there's also a big problem. There are no people of colour in the game beyond people from the Cuman tribe, a Turkic people from the Eurasian Steppe. The question is, should there be? The game's makers say they've done years of research and found no conclusive proof there should be, but a historian I spoke to, who specialises in the area, disagrees.

"We know of African kings in Constantinople on pilgrimage to Spain; we know of black Moors in Spain; we know of extensive travel of Jews from the courts of Cordoba and Damascus; we also know of black people in large cities in Germany," the historian, Sean Miller, tells me. Czech cities Olomouc and Prague were on the famous Silk Road which facilitated the trade of goods all over the world. If you plot a line between them, it runs directly through the area recreated in Kingdom Come. "You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy.

It's not conclusive proof but it's readily available doubt to undermine Warhorse's interpretation. What muddies the water further is whose interpretation it overridingly is: creative director, writer and Warhorse co-founder Daniel Vavra's. He has been a vocal supporter of GamerGate and involved in antagonistic exchanges on Twitter (collected in a ResetEra thread). More recently, he wore the same T-shirt depicting an album cover by the band Burzum every day at Gamescom 2017 - a very visible time for him and his game. Burzum is the work of one man: Varg Vikernes, a convicted murderer and outspoken voice on racial purity and supremacy. He even identified as a Nazi for a while.

This isn't to say Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a hotbed of racism, because it isn't. The Turkic Cumans speak a different language and are a hostile enemy, which seems like a limited portrayal but no less so than any other war game I can think of. Then again, I'm white, so maybe I've missed things. And racism can take many forms, one of them being exclusion.

More apparent to me was the back-slapping laddishness revolving around bedding women. I'm pursuing a love story over here, while over there bedding a noble and having one-night stands. That's in addition to my Troubadour perk which makes me even more irresistible to women and lets me use the "bathwenches" for free, which ties into a key mechanic of keeping yourself clean and patched up. It also means I get the Alpha Male buff (+2 to Charisma) because I've been satisfied and apparently it shows. It literally says that. The game's Codex even feels the need to describe the ideal woman of the time: "a thin, pale woman with long blonde hair, small rounded breasts, relatively narrow hips and a narrow waist".

All of which means that a shadow lingers over Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Instead of challenging the Dark Age it reinterprets 615 years later, the game seems to delight in it. Instead of seeing notes in the margin of a history book, we get what feels like a glossy pamphlet advertising an escape into an oddly romanticised past. And it's that, ultimately, which makes me too uneasy about Warhorse's work to be able to recommend it.
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I still want to play it myself, The Witcher 3 had similar sensibilities about it, the difference is the director of that wasn’t a cunt is all but at the end of the day he’s one dude amongst a 50 :?: man dev studio.

Too much stuff to play at the moment though, will give them time to iron out the bugs anyway.
maf-me-quick wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:41 pm
I don’t know. I don’t even know what a fascist is.
The far right wing on the political spectrum is Fascism.

The far left wing on the political spectrum is Communism.

Thats the layman’s explanation anyway, if I go into too much detail it’ll confuse you.

sleepery jeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:45 pm
Ask Blakey....though he only believes in the one kind, weird really its like believing in Santa but not the Easter Bunny.
This makes no sense at all. Do you actually have an point to make here, or just taking another opportunity to echo your ‘free thinking’ spiel?
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:06 pm

Well I've already posted on the history stuff...
sleepery jeem wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:29 pm
One little nugget of history that has always stuck in my head was that Moroccan slavers would often raid Cornwall for fresh body's.

Also the Roman Empire left many non europeans dotted around their old territory's, with the whole scheme of giving retired legionaries land in the furthest reaches of its empire to protect and Romanise the lands.

And throughout the so called dark ages trade routes keep up all the way to china, so there was always other peoples about but mostly just traders or slaves.


Mind you there was countless multi-ethnic pogroms after the collapse of central Roman dominance, so he may be factually correct for the regions the game is set in but I doubt it.
So I do disagree with this aspect of the game, but as I've said before I refuse to rob myself of any experience just because of currant social morays.

As for the abuse of power over woman, I actually thought Henry is rather meek and shy when using the bathhouses and the women rather dismissive of him, yes he's still a paying customer but it fits the time its set in or are we to whitewash any part of history we find unpalatable.


On a side note the Cuman horde are looked apon as murdering rapists who eat babies, aside from the last one (maybe) its factual truth, ? but does that make it racist to add it to the game, I don't think so.


And as for my "spiel" I just think both far's are equally loathsome, but your focus on the right suggests a blind spot to the left.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:25 pm

Meanwhile back in the game...


:twisted: managed to poison my first bandit camp...

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Ended up with so much loot that I couldn't fast travel and it took 5m just to ride back to civilisation.


One of the more interesting mechanics is that Henry as a lowly serf cant read...

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Though its simply a matter of buying books to raise the skill the price of each book (50+ G each) it does show just how rare reading was back then as that 50 Groschen would be 4 months wages to a commoner.


:| uh-ho, a hidden cabin in the woods, torture instruments and a bath full of blood....

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Cant be Elizabeth Báthory she's from Hungary, just a serial killer then.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by Blakey » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:03 pm

sleepery jeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:06 pm

And as for my "spiel" I just think both far's are equally loathsome, but your focus on the right suggests a blind spot to the left.
Well you’re mistaken, I completely agree that Communism and Fascism are equally loathsome.

There’s plenty of awful communists over the years, Stalin and Mao were responsible for some of the worst famines in history, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia committed some of the worst atrocities in the 20th century.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by bellow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:30 am

Fascism is a kind of authoritarian nationalism which tends to identify the outsider as the cause of a nation's problems. However, it really isn't right wing politically. The Nazis were a socialist party by name, and the general point of authoritarian leadership is to control commerce from the centre.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:41 am

Blakey wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:03 pm

There’s plenty of awful communists over the years, Stalin and Mao were responsible for some of the worst famines in history, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia committed some of the worst atrocities in the 20th century.

Oh no we agree on that, what I haven't seen is disagreement with more recent activities, I've posted on the Freedom Party in Austria and Momentum here in the UK.

I've also posted at length on the extreme Left actions on TERF issues.

:| we're never gonna see eye to eye on much I think, but i for one don't like being pidgin holed as a right wing nutter.

And i suppose at times i look upon you as a soft think as your told lefty, so i'm as guilty as you sorry.


:| yeah we're not gonna agree on much so i'll try to restrict it to the New Puritan thread so as to cause less distraction for the other members in future.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:45 am

:D so bought my first horse today.....

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Kelpie :) what a great old Scots name for a horse : http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/The-Kelpie/

This makes my combat style a lot easier, as I can now store my heavy armour in my saddlebags and when I encounter an ambush I simply ride on a few seconds (you need to be clear of combat to change armour, though not weapons) put my armour on turn around and fight.

:oops: do have to say I find fighting on horseback hard, though the horse controls well (after you buy stirrups and rains & bits) the timing to hit a target whilst charging on Kelpie eludes me.


:!: TOP TIP :!: whilst I remember : Always carry both blunt/stab and slash/stab weapons, the blunt weapons are best suited to foes wearing Plate Armour, and slash/stab weapons work best against Chainmail and Padding.

Its a rock paper scissors system with a few kinks, you could get away with just a Long Sword but using the right weapon class just works better as this is a stats driven game.

Examples of Blunt weapons would be Axes and Maces with Swords both long and short and Pole Arms for slash/stab.



:lol: seems Warhorse took a bit of artistic licence here as Charlatan is French from a later period, but its amusing to see one in game, you can buy the ground finger bones of a local saint or maybe the blue ground Unicorn horn would be more to your tastes...

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:? finally I have no idea what this thing is....

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:? half a tree wearing giant boots with a skeleton beside it, if its an easter egg I haven't a clue, maybe its some obscure Czech fairy-tale character :?:
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:19 pm

8) nice to see some professional reviews putting the time in this game needs...

How I learned to love Kingdom Come: Deliverance

From its inception, Kingdom Come: Deliverance was billed as a game steeped in realism. From period-accurate food and weapon damage to characters drawn from history, Warhorse Studios did its homework. With the game’s release last week, we finally got to play in their (as promised) realistic version of 15th century Bohemia.

And it’s oddly baffling.

It’s easy to understand what a game so focused on realism and accuracy means — you can’t fly and there are no laser rifles in 15th century Bohemia. It’s much harder to understand a video game that takes that premise of unrelenting realism so seriously. Many hours in, I’ve learned to love this strange and confusing game, a process that started with examining my expectations.

Video games tend to have a simple premise: Find sword. Swing sword. Save world. Sure, there are fun twists from time to time, but games usually boil down to being the hero. But in Kingdom Come: Deliverance, you play as Henry, son of a Bohemian blacksmith in 1403. From minute one of this game, it’s clear he’s not a hero of legend.

When destiny comes calling, Henry can either stand and fight or run away as fast as he can. When it comes to big damn heroes — your Links, your Samuses (Samusi?), your Masters Chief — there’s no question what they’d do. But when it comes to Henry — who rolled out of bed at the crack of noon just a couple hours ago to do his chores — there’s a very real chance that playing the hero will get him killed (spoiler: it will definitely get him killed).

I struggled with this concept for an embarrassingly long time. Despite everything I already knew about Henry, three decades of gaming experience convinced me that I knew exactly what to do. I squared up against the bad guys and swung the sword that fate handed me. And I failed. Over and over again for, if I’m being honest, hours.

It took me so long because I know how to play games — “Find sword. Swing sword. Save world.” I was certain I was right and that the game was wrong, so I kept trying, again and again, to figure out how to be the hero. Out of desperation and frustration, I ran away — and I didn’t stop running until I was behind some thick walls being protected by trained soldiers. And it worked.

That’s where Kingdom Come: Deliverance became infinitely more enjoyable: when I stopped forcing my expectations of playing a larger-than-life hero and started roleplaying a very human peasant. That transition from thinking about the game as an escapist, wish-fulfillment, hack-n-slash action movie into a reality-based peasant simulator was profound.

It’s not just that Henry’s not some big hero. It’s that you as the player don’t get to play as a big hero either — you get to play as Henry. And you have to remember that Henry is human. He has to eat, sleep and bathe. He has a job and a boss. Running away from fights, watching what you eat and showing up to work on time are all things a video game hero wouldn’t normally do, but they are all things Henry would (and has to) do.

I found it impossibly frustrating at first, but as I became more accepting of Henry’s humanity, it became easy to understand both what the game expected of me and how to get there. And in that intersection of tempered expectations and realism, I learned to love the game.

Ambition

Kingdom Come: Deliverance is ambitious. It doesn’t compromise on the original promise of realism. At first, abandoning the “yes, and …” empowerment you usually get from video games felt off-putting. That was an expectation I had to examine and, ultimately, abandon. And I’m glad I did because it freed me to explore the world Warhorse Studios created for a blacksmith’s son without my own hero fantasies colouring it.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance didn’t just create some realistic physics or accurate weapons. It created a realistic human protagonist. Managing all of Henry’s needs isn’t a ponderous new mechanic to learn — you know all the rules because you, presumably, are already a human. When the game gets confusing or you hit a wall, the trick is not to outthink the game, but to ask yourself what Henry, or for that matter you, would do.

It’s fun to play as the destiny-touched warrior on their journey to punch a god, but Kingdom Come: Deliverance shows that there’s also fun in being the best damn peasant you can be. It can be a little more freeing actually, without all that extra destiny and fate-of-the-world baggage.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance isn’t without its stumbles. Warhorse Studios occasionally fell just short of its ambitious goals. The game has more than its fair share of graphical glitches — missing weapon assets or textures and other little things like missing buildings. It feels buggy and broken at times — and it is — but the game is fun in spite of its shortcomings. It’s quirky, not infuriating.

None of the forgiveness I’m advocating would be possible without something to prop up those missteps. It needs something to make the flaws less noticeable. And that’s why Kingdom Come: Deliverance’s story is so important.

Henry finds himself unwittingly caught up in 15th-century geopolitical drama. It’s a rich and detailed story. And it doesn’t really involve Henry.

Henry’s not a member of the ruling family, aristocracy or the elite. He’s caught up in their drama, but his personal aspirations are just as restricted by realism as his abilities are. In this peasant simulator, the fun lies not in becoming even more superhuman, but in finding the best outcome given the restrictions of Henry’s provincial life.

Henry isn’t alone in his provincial life, either. The world of Kingdom Come: Deliverance is full of other inhabitants with lives, jobs and plenty to say. Their dozens of hours of dialogue aren’t restricted to exposition or repetitive NPC catchphrases (though there is plenty of that, too). NPCs tend to be characters, not just things to talk at. The care that clearly went into their creation makes the world feel more real.

I certainly didn’t expect to become emotionally invested in the royal court drama of 15th century Czechia, but it didn’t take long before I found myself with very strong opinions about usurper kings. And that was thanks to the story and the writing. Add in the very thorough codex, which supplies history lessons and background details, and Kingdom Come: Deliverance creates about as engrossing a game as I’ve ever played.

There are two ways to approach history and historical fiction like Kingdom Come: Deliverance. (There are way more than two approaches, but for simplicity and for the purposes of discussing a video game, these are the two I’ll focus on.) One is Thomas Carlyle’s great man theory, where “the history of the world is but the biography of great men” (please note that all gendered language is original here and is not how I’d prefer to phrase it). The other is social history which focuses instead on people, not leaders, and their everyday lives. Henry is decidedly not one of Carlyle’s great men.

In Kingdom Come: Deliverance, you’re just some guy who got in over his head and finds himself swept up in a story much larger than himself. It’s sometimes confusing and deliberately slow and filled with people telling you what to do but not how to do it. It’s messy and unfair.

Just like life.


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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by sleepery jeem » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:18 pm

15/2/2018
According to Vavra, shipments of the game are over 100,000 copies at retail, while sales of the game on Steam have already surpassed over 300,000 copies sold, and the game is currently at the top of the best-sellers chart on Steam (as of this writing). Based on this, Vavra (and the studio) expect that the game will reach over 500,000 in sales very soon.

:shock: well that didn't take long, seems there is no such thing as bad publicity...
Once again proving that there's a real thirst for deep role-playing games, Kingdom Come: Deliverance has passed 1 million sales across all platforms. The dramatic tale of peasants, knights, and war launched only nine days ago, so that's a pretty good result for developer Warhorse Studios.
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Re: Kingdom Come : Deliverance.

Post by Blakey » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:43 pm

I’m really pleased for them that this appears to be a huge success, the more I hear about and see of it the more I want it, it’s £30 on PC and runs way better than its console cousins so I am tempted.

Maybe once MG Survive is out the way.
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